Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth

Rachel Lockett is a sought-after executive coach and former HR leader at Stripe and Pinterest who now works with CEOs, founders, and tech leaders on emotional intelligence, resilience, and leadership skills. In this episode, Rachel shares powerful frameworks for coaching reports, having difficult conversations, avoiding burnout, and strengthening co-founder relationships. She also demonstrates these techniques through a live coaching session with me.We discuss:* When to coach and when to just tell people what to do [09:00]* The GROW technique for helping people figure out a solution for themselves [18:37]* Techniques for making difficult conversations less difficult [01:20:28]* Avoiding burnout and designing a more energizing career [41:55]* Building and sustaining a healthy co-founder relationship [01:06:50]* Creating a one-page plan that aligns your entire company [01:31:47]* Practical ways AI is transforming executive coaching and leadership development [01:36:50]* Why you should ask, “Would I enthusiastically rehire this person?” to clarify talent decisions [23:55]Also on Spotify and Apple PodcastsBrought to you by:Stripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenueVanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.Persona—A global leader in digital identity verificationWhere to find Rachel Lockett:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhlockett/• Website: https://www.lockettcoaching.comReferenced:• One-page plan template: https://www.lockettcoaching.com/#resources• Lockett Coaching Leadership Toolkit: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/s74a9cn1ka1ebz6pglypf/Leadership-Toolkit_-Coaching-Rachel-Lockett.pdf?rlkey=yg2m9df2ziwy0fa6p0dt4gcfu&st=dgzvnf76&dl=0• Renew Your Co-Founder Vows—and Other Tactics for Strengthening the Most Important Relationship in Your Startup: https://review.firstround.com/five-practices-to-strengthen-your-co-founder-relationship/• First Round Guide to Co-Founder Check-Ins: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yUosmfMuE-8-sAwPrEPDcGqkJLVLWg5dC2_8lcXm7U4/edit?tab=t.0• Coinbase: https://www.coinbase.com• Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?: https://hbr.org/1999/11/management-time-whos-got-the-monkey• Chuck Palahniuk’s quote from Fight Club: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1338270-people-don-t-listen-they-just-wait-for-their-turn-to• Patrick Collison on X: https://x.com/patrickc• Stripe: https://stripe.com• Remind: https://www.remind.com• Zach Abrams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zacharyabrams• Brex: https://www.brex.com• Bridge: https://www.bridge.xyz• Superhuman’s secret to success: Ignoring most customer feedback, manually onboarding every new user, obsessing over every detail, and positioning around a single attribute: speed | Rahul Vohra (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/superhumans-secret-to-success-rahul-vohra• Zigging vs. zagging: How HubSpot built a $30B company | Dharmesh Shah (co-founder/CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-30-years-of-building• The Enneagram Institute: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com• How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford GSB professor, “Touchy Feely”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin• How have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don’t want? | Jerry Colonna (CEO of Reboot, executive coach, former VC): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/jerry-colonna• How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-netflix-builds-a-culture-of-excellence• What Is PeopleFirst?: https://alpineinvestors.com/story/what-is-peoplefirst• How to break out of autopilot and create the life you want | Graham Weaver (Stanford GSB professor, founder of Alpine Investors): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-break-out-of-autopilot-graham-weaver• Granola: https://www.granola.ai• KPop Demon Hunters on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81498621• Loom: https://www.loom.com• Joseph Campbell’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21396-if-you-can-see-your-path-laid-out-in-front• Wes Anderson’s short films (Roald Dahl) on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/wes-anderson-netflix-short-filmsRecommended books:• Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life: Life-Changing Tools for Healthy Relationships: https://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Life-Changing-Relationships/dp/189200528X• The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success: https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable/dp/0990976904• Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Life-Well-Lived-Joyful/dp/1101875321• Roald Dahl books: https://www.amazon.com/Roald-Dahl-Collection-Books-Box/dp/0241377293Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.My biggest takeaways from this conversation: To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Stewart Butterfield is the co-founder of Slack and Flickr, two of the most influential products in internet history. After selling Slack to Salesforce in one of tech’s biggest acquisitions, he’s been focused on family, philanthropy, and creative projects. In this rare podcast appearance, Stewart shares the product frameworks and leadership principles that most contributed to his success. From “utility curves” to “the owner’s delusion” to “hyper-realistic work-like activities,” his thoughts on craft, strategy, and leadership apply to anyone building products or leading teams.We discuss:1. Hyper-realistic work-like activities2. The owner’s delusion3. Utility curves4. “Don’t make me think”5. “We don’t sell saddles here”6. Tilting your umbrella7. When to pivot—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsMetronome—Monetization infrastructure for modern software companiesLovable—Build apps by simply chatting with AI—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178320649/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Stewart Butterfield:• X: https://x.com/stewart• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/butterfield—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Stewart Butterfield(04:58) Stewart’s current life and reflections(06:44) Understanding utility curves(10:13) The concept of divine discontent(15:11) The importance of taste in product design(19:03) Tilting your umbrella(28:32) Balancing friction and comprehension(45:07) The value of constant dissatisfaction(47:06) Embracing continuous improvement(50:03) The complexity of making things work(54:27) Parkinson’s law and organizational growth(01:03:17) Hyper-realistic work-like activities(01:13:23) Advice on when to pivot(01:18:36) The importance of generosity in leadership(01:26:34) The owner’s delusion—Referenced:• Slack: https://slack.com• Flickr: https://www.flickr.com• Cal Henderson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamcal• Blok: https://blok.so• Brandon Velestuk on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-velestuk-6018721b• Magic Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link• Ticketmaster: https://www.ticketmaster.com• John Collison on X: https://x.com/collision• Patrick Collison on X: https://x.com/patrickc• Sundar Pichai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sundarpichai• Three Questions with Slack’s CEO: https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo• Six Sigma: https://www.6sigma.us• What is kaizen and how does Toyota use it?: https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system• John Collison’s post on X about passion projects: https://x.com/collision/status/1529452415346302976• Parkinson’s law: https://www.economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law• We Don’t Sell Saddles Here: https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d• Glitch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game)• IRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC• This will make you a better decision-maker | Annie Duke (author of “Thinking in Bets” and “Quit,” former pro poker player): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-better-decisions-annie-duke• The woman behind Canva shares how she built a $42B company from nothing | Melanie Perkins: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva• Prisoner’s dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma• Stewart Little: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little• Dharma and Greg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg• Stewart’s post on X referencing “the owner’s delusion”: https://x.com/stewart/status/1223286626991796224—Recommended books:• Principles: Life and Work: https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021• Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress―and How to Bring It Back: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X• Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind: https://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586• Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away: https://www.amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Dr. Fei-Fei Li is known as the “godmother of AI.” She’s been at the center of AI’s biggest breakthroughs for over two decades. She spearheaded ImageNet, the dataset that sparked the deep-learning revolution we’re living right now, served as Google Cloud’s Chief AI Scientist, directed Stanford’s Artificial Intelligence Lab, and co-founded Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI. In this conversation, Fei-Fei shares the rarely told history of how we got here—including the wild fact that just nine years ago, calling yourself an AI company was basically a death sentence.We discuss:1. How ImageNet helped spark the AI explosion we’re living through2. Why world models and spatial intelligence represent the next frontier in AI, beyond large language models3. Why Fei-Fei believes AI won’t replace humans but will require us to take responsibility for ourselves4. The surprising applications of Marble, from movie production to psychological research5. Why robotics faces unique challenges compared with language models and what’s needed to overcome them6. How to participate in AI regardless of your role—Brought to you by:Figma Make—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas realJustworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidenceSinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178223233/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Dr. Fei-Fei Li• X: https://x.com/drfeifei• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fei-fei-li-4541247• World Labs: https://www.worldlabs.ai—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Dr. Fei-Fei Li(05:31) The evolution of AI(09:37) The birth of ImageNet(17:25) The rise of deep learning(23:53) The future of AI and AGI(29:51) Introduction to world models(40:45) The bitter lesson in AI and robotics(48:02) Introducing Marble, a revolutionary product(51:00) Applications and use cases of Marble(01:01:01) The founder’s journey and insights(01:10:05) Human-centered AI at Stanford(01:14:24) The role of AI in various professions(01:18:16) Conclusion and final thoughts—References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Grant Lee is the co-founder of Gamma, the AI-powered presentation tool that’s one of the hottest and most interesting AI startups in the world right now. They’re valued at over $2 billion, and they hit $100 million ARR in just over two years, with a lean team of just around 30 people. Unlike many fast-growing AI startups, Gamma has been profitable for most of its history, has not raised significant funding, and they built a massive business in a category most investors dismissed. In fact, one investor told Grant his idea was “the dumbest idea he had ever heard.”We discuss:• How Gamma found product-market fit by rethinking their onboarding• Their process for building a “word-of-mouth machine”• How they leveraged more than 1,000 micro-influencers instead of big names• Why focusing on the “first 30 seconds” transformed their business• Their approach to pricing that led to profitability within months• How Grant thinks about building a durable “GPT wrapper” business—Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.Justworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidenceMiro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Where to find Grant Lee:• X: https://x.com/thisisgrantlee• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantslee—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Grant Lee and Gamma(05:59) The founding story of Gamma(09:52) Achieving product-market fit(15:43) Self-awareness as a founder(17:17) The power of onboarding(20:41) The original insight that led to Gamma(22:42) Founder-led marketing and growth tactics(29:20) Sharing online(37:40) Getting to $100M ARR(41:19) Influencer marketing as a growth strategy(54:08) Virality is not an accident(58:30) Investing in brand before paid ads(01:02:04) Tips for getting started with performance marketing(01:04:49) Prototyping and user feedback(01:16:12) Adapting and moving quickly(01:19:21) The concept of GPT wrapper companies(01:22:16) Deep dive into workflow and model utilization(01:29:06) Pricing strategies(01:34:53) Hiring philosophy and practices(01:43:24) Betting big on high performers(01:45:03) Final thoughts and lightning round—References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-50-people-built-a-profitable-ai-unicorn—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Jen Abel is GM of Enterprise at State Affairs and co-founded Jellyfish, a consultancy that helps founders learn zero-to-one enterprise sales. She’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met on learning enterprise sales, and in this follow-up to our first chat two years ago (covering the zero to $1 million ARR founder-led sales phase), we focus on the skills founders need to learn to go from $1M to $10M ARR.We discuss:1. Why the “mid-market” doesn’t exist2. Why tier-one logos like Stripe and Tesla counterintuitively make the best early customers3. The dangers of pricing your product at $10K-$20K4. Why you need to vision-cast instead of problem-solve to win enterprise deals5. Why services are the fastest way to get your foot in the door with enterprises6. How to find and work with design partners7. When to hire your first salesperson and what profile to look for—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsLovable—Build apps by simply chatting with AICoda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Where to find Jen Abel:• X: https://x.com/jjen_abel• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/earlystagesales• Website: https://www.jjellyfish.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Welcome back, Jen!(04:38) The myth of the mid-market(08:08) Targeting tier-one logos(10:50) Vision-casting vs. problem-selling(15:35) The importance of high ACVs(20:45)  Don’t play the small business game with an enterprise company(25:09) Design partners: the double-edged sword(28:11) Finding the right company(36:55) Enterprise sales: the art of the deal(43:21) The problem with channel partnerships(44:41) Quick summary(50:24) Hiring the right enterprise salespeople(56:49) Structuring sales compensation(01:01:01) Building relationships in enterprise sales(01:02:07) The art of cold outreach(01:07:31) Outbound tooling and AI(01:14:08) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• The ultimate guide to founder-led sales | Jen Abel (co-founder of JJELLYFISH): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/master-founder-led-sales-jen-abel• Mario meme: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/missing-meme-led-me-woman-johann-van-tonder-im6df• Kathy Sierra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Justin Lawson on X: https://x.com/jjustin_lawson• Stripe: https://stripe.com• Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Linear: https://linear.app• Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com• Microsoft Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com• How Palantir built the ultimate founder factory | Nabeel S. Qureshi (founder, writer, ex-Palantir): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-palantir-nabeel-qureshi• McKinsey & Company: https://www.mckinsey.com• Deloitte: https://www.deloitte.com• Accenture: https://www.accenture.com• Building a world-class sales org | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-world-class-sales-org• Peter Dedene on X: https://x.com/peterdedene• Hang Huang on X: https://x.com/HH_HangHuang• Hugo Alves on X: https://x.com/Ugo_alves• A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting• Clay: https://www.clay.com• Apollo: https://www.apollo.io• Jason Lemkin on X: https://x.com/jasonlk• Gavin Baker on X: https://x.com/GavinSBaker• Jason Cohen on X: https://x.com/asmartbear• Baywatch on Prime Video: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Baywatch/0NU9YS8WWRNQO1NZD5DOQ3I8W6• Playground: https://www.tryplayground.com• ClassDojo: https://www.classdojo.com• Jason Lemkin’s post about Replit: https://x.com/jasonlk/status/1946069562723897802—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Melanie Perkins is CEO and co-founder of Canva, currently valued at over $42 billion, generating over $3 billion in annual revenue, with more than 240 million monthly active users and, incredibly, eight consecutive years of profitability. But the journey was far from smooth. Melanie was rejected by over 100 investors during her first fundraising round, her team spent two years without being able to ship a new feature during a technical rewrite, and the company pivoted early from a yearbook publishing platform to become the design powerhouse it is today. Through it all, she maintained what she calls “column B” thinking: building toward a dream future rather than just using the bricks around you.We discuss:1. How “column B” thinking helped Melanie build Canva, by starting with an impossible vision rather than existing constraints2. The power of setting “crazy big goals”3. How Canva survived a painful two-year period without shipping any new features while rewriting their codebase4. How Melanie pushed through 100 investor rejections, and how she used each rejection to strengthen her pitch5. Canva’s “two-step plan”: build one of the world’s most valuable companies, then do the most good possible6. Melanie’s vision for 2050 and why she believes imagination is the first step toward a better world—Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security. https://vanta.com/lennyStripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenue: https://stripe.com/Justworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidence: https://www.justworks.com—Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva⁠⁠—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/176082995/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Melanie Perkins:• X: https://x.com/melaniecanva• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanieperkins/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Melanie Perkins and Canva(04:44) Building a “column B” company(06:36) Operationalizing big visions(13:13) Crazy big goals and celebrations(22:00) Challenges and setbacks in Canva’s journey(26:30) Fundraising and investor rejections(29:36) Leadership and growth lessons(34:38) Canva’s goal-driven structure(35:46) Balancing work and personal life(38:02) Community-driven product development(40:37) The two-step plan for global impact(45:04) Canva’s biggest launch yet(48:10) How Canva approaches product expansion(52:37) AI integration in Canva(53:56) AI corner(55:22) Melanie’s vision for 2050 and beyond(01:00:07) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Canva: https://www.canva.com/• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach• Building high-performing teams | Melissa Tan (Webflow, Dropbox, Canva): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-high-performing-teams-melissa• UserTesting: https://www.usertesting.com/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/• Calm: https://www.calm.com/• Gandhi’s quote about happiness: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/mahatma_gandhi_105593• Help us improve Canva: https://www.canva.com/help/get-in-touch/general-feedback/—Recommended books:• Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Expanded-Overcoming-Inspiration/dp/0593594649/• The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898/• The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Moments-Certain-Experiences-Extraordinary/dp/1501147765• Designing the Obvious: A Common Sense Approach to Web and Mobile Application Design: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Obvious-Common-Approach-Application/dp/0321749855—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Dhanji R. Prasanna is the chief technology officer at Block (formerly Square), where he’s managed more than 4,000 engineers over the past two years. Under his leadership, Block has become one of the most AI-native large companies in the world. Before becoming CTO, Dhanji wrote an “AI manifesto” to CEO Jack Dorsey that sparked a company-wide transformation (and his promotion to CTO).We discuss:1. How Block’s internal open-source agent, called Goose, is saving employees 8 to 10 hours weekly2. How the company measures AI productivity gains across technical and non-technical teams3. Which teams are benefiting most from AI (it’s not engineering)4. The boring organizational change that boosted productivity even more than AI tools5. Why code quality has almost nothing to do with product success6. How to drive AI adoption throughout an organization (hint: leadership needs to use the tools daily)7. Lessons from building Google Wave, Google+, and other failed products—Brought to you by:Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product: https://sinch.com/lennyFigma Make—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real: https://www.figma.com/lenny/Persona—A global leader in digital identity verification: https://withpersona.com/lenny—Where to find Dhanji R. Prasanna:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhanji/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Dhanji(05:26) The AI manifesto: convincing Jack Dorsey(07:33) Transforming into a more AI-native company(12:05) How engineering teams work differently today(15:24) Goose: Block’s open-source AI agent(20:18) Measuring AI productivity gains across teams(21:38) What Goose is and how it works(32:15) The future of AI in engineering and productivity(37:42) The importance of human taste(40:10) Building vs. buying software(44:08) How AI is changing hiring and team structure(53:45) The importance of using AI tools yourself before deploying them(55:13) How Goose helped solve a personal problem with receipts(58:01) What makes Goose unique(59:57) What Dhanji wishes he knew before becoming CTO(01:01:49) Counterintuitive lessons in product development(01:04:56) Why controlled chaos can be good for engineering teams(01:08:07) Core leadership lessons(01:13:36) Failure corner(01:15:50) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Jack Dorsey on X: https://x.com/jack• Block: https://block.xyz/• Square: https://squareup.com/• Cash App: https://cash.app/• What is Conway’s Law?: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365-life-hacks/organization/what-is-conways-law#• Goose: https://github.com/block/goose• Gosling: https://github.com/block/goose-mobile• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/• Claude: https://claude.ai/• Anthropic co-founder on quitting OpenAI, AGI predictions, $100M talent wars, 20% unemployment, and the nightmare scenarios keeping him up at night | Ben Mann: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropic-co-founder-benjamin-mann• OpenAI: https://openai.com/• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Llama: https://www.llama.com/• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Top Gun: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092099/• Lenny’s vibe-coded Lovable app: https://gdoc-images-grab.lovable.app/• Afterpay: https://github.com/afterpay• Bitkey: https://bitkey.world/• Proto: https://github.com/proto-at-block• Brad Axen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradleyaxen/• Databricks: https://www.databricks.com/• Carl Sagan’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/32952-if-you-wish-to-make-an-apple-pie-from-scratch• Google Wave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Wave• Google Video: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Video• Secret: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_(app)• Alien Earth on FX: https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/alien-earth• Slow Horses on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/slow-horses/umc.cmc.2szz3fdt71tl1ulnbp8utgq5o• Fargo TV series on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Fargo-Season-1/dp/B09QGRGH6M• Steam Deck OLED display: https://www.steamdeck.com/en/oled• Doc Brown: https://backtothefuture.fandom.com/wiki/Emmett_Brown—Recommended books:• The Master and Margarita: https://www.amazon.com/Master-Margarita-Mikhail-Bulgakov/dp/0802130119• Tennyson Poems: https://www.amazon.com/Tennyson-Poems-Everymans-Library-Pocket/dp/1400041872/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Chip Huyen is a core developer on Nvidia’s Nemo platform, a former AI researcher at Netflix, and taught machine learning at Stanford. She’s a two-time founder and the author of two widely read books on AI, including AI Engineering, which has been the most-read book on the O’Reilly platform since its launch. Unlike many AI commentators, Chip has built multiple successful AI products and platforms and works directly with enterprises on their AI strategies, giving her unique visibility into what’s actually happening inside companies building AI products.We discuss:1. What people think makes AI apps better vs. what actually makes AI apps better2. What pre-training vs. post-training is, and why fine-tuning should be your last resort3. How RLHF (reinforcement learning from human feedback) actually works4. Why data quality matters more than which vector database you choose5. Why high performers are seeing the most gains from AI coding tools6. Why most AI problems are actually UX issues—Brought to you by:Dscout—The UX platform to capture insights at every stage: from ideation to production: https://www.dscout.com/Justworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidence: https://www.justworks.comPersona—A global leader in digital identity verification: https://withpersona.com/lenny—Where to find Chip Huyen:• X: https://x.com/chipro• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chiphuyen/• Website: https://huyenchip.com/• Substack: https://substack.com/@chiphuyen—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Chip Huyen(04:28) Chip’s viral LinkedIn post(07:05) Understanding AI training: pre-training vs. post-training(08:50) Language modeling explained(13:55) The importance of post-training(15:20) Reinforcement learning and human feedback(22:23) The importance of evals in AI development(31:55) Retrieval augmented generation (RAG) explained(38:50) Challenges in AI tool adoption(43:19) Challenges in measuring productivity(45:20) The three-bucket test(49:10) The future of engineering roles(55:31) ML Engineers vs. AI engineers(57:12) Looking forward: the impact of AI(01:05:48) Model capabilities vs. perceived performance(01:08:23) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Chip’s LinkedIn post on what actually improves AI apps: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/chiphuyen_aiapplications-aiengineering-activity-7358971409227792384-y0mf/• Prediction and Entropy of Printed English: https://www.princeton.edu/~wbialek/rome/refs/shannon_51.pdf• Why experts writing AI evals is creating the fastest-growing companies in history | Brendan Foody (CEO of Mercor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody•Inside the expert network training every frontier AI model | Garrett Lord (Handshake CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-handshake-garrett-lord• First interview with Scale AI’s CEO: $14B Meta deal, what’s working in enterprise AI, and what frontier labs are building next | Jason Droege: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/first-interview-with-scale-ais-ceo-jason-droege• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Why AI evals are the hottest new skill for product builders | Hamel Husain & Shreya Shankar (creators of the #1 eval course): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-evals-are-the-hottest-new-skill• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Stanford webinar—How AI Is Changing Coding and Education, Andrew Ng & Mehran Sahami: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J91_npj0Nfw• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor• Anthropic co-founder on quitting OpenAI, AGI predictions, $100M talent wars, 20% unemployment, and the nightmare scenarios keeping him up at night | Ben Mann: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropic-co-founder-benjamin-mann• Lenny’s vibe-coded app made on Lovable: https://gdoc-images-grab.lovable.app/• Story of Yanxi Palace: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8865016/• Steve Jobs’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/427317-remembering-that-i-ll-be-dead-soon-is-the-most-important—Recommended books:• The Complete Sherlock Holmes: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Sherlock-Holmes-Volumes/dp/0553328255• AI Engineering: Building Applications with Foundation Models: https://www.amazon.com/AI-Engineering-Building-Applications-Foundation/dp/1098166302• The Selfish Gene: https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Anniversary-Introduction/dp/0199291152• From Third World to First: The Singapore Story: 1965-2000: https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000/dp/0060197765—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Nicole Forsgren created the most widely used frameworks for measuring developer productivity—DORA and SPACE. She wrote the foundational book Accelerate and is about to release her newest book, Frictionless, a practical guide for helping teams move faster in the AI era. She’s currently Senior Director of Developer Intelligence at Google.We discuss:1. Why most productivity metrics are a lie2. Signs that your engineering team could be moving much faster3. Why AI accelerates coding but developers aren’t speeding up as much as you think4. AI’s impact on engineers getting into “flow”5. Her framework for building and scaling a developer experience team6. The three components of developer experience: flow state, cognitive load, and feedback loops—Brought to you by:Mercury—The art of simplified finances: https://mercury.com/WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs: https://workos.com/lennyCoda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace: https://coda.io/lenny—Where to find Nicole Forsgren:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nicolefv• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolefv/• Website: https://nicolefv.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Nicole Forsgren(05:09) The concept of developer experience (DevEx)(08:33) Flow state and cognitive load in the age of AI(12:02) Challenges in measuring productivity with AI(21:19) The importance of developer experience for business value(22:20) Common issues and solutions in developer experience(26:49) Signs your eng team is moving too slow(29:52) How AI is improving productivity(33:32) Real examples of productivity improvements(36:35) Introducing her new book, Frictionless(43:40) How to get started building a DevEx team(45:15) The impact of forming developer experience teams(46:15)  How to measure the impact of DevEx teams(48:53) Measuring the impact of AI tools on productivity(55:16) Survey design for developer experience(57:59) Popular AI tools for developers(59:08) Bringing a product mindset to DevEx improvements(01:00:40) AI corner(01:02:33) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• How to measure and improve developer productivity | Nicole Forsgren (Microsoft Research, GitHub, Google): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer• DORA: https://dora.dev/• The SPACE framework: A comprehensive guide to developer productivity: https://getdx.com/blog/space-metrics/• Measuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4: https://getdx.com/research/measuring-developer-productivity-with-the-dx-core-4/• Gloria Mark’s website: https://gloriamark.com/• Taking Flight with Copilot: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3589996• DevEx in Action: https://spawn-queue.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3639443• CodeX: https://openai.com/codex/• Devin: https://devin.ai/• Abi Noda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abinoda/• DX is joining Atlassian: https://getdx.com/blog/dx-is-joining-atlassian/• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Gemini Code Assist: https://codeassist.google/• Claude Code: https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code• The AI-native startup: 5 products, 7-figure revenue, 100% AI-written code | Dan Shipper (co-founder/CEO of Every): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-every-dan-shipper• Love Is Blind on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80996601• Shrinking on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/shrinking/umc.cmc.apzybj6eqf6pzccd97kev7bs• Ninja Creami: https://www.amazon.com/Ninja-NC301-CREAMi-Containers-Bundle/dp/B0BLGR5JPV/• Jura coffee maker: https://www.amazon.com/Jura-Nordic-Automatic-Coffee-Machine/dp/B0CF65BFZ1/—Recommended books:• Frictionless: https://developerexperiencebook.com/• DevEx Workbook: https://developerexperiencebook.com/#workbook• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599• Back Mechanic: https://www.amazon.com/Back-Mechanic-Stuart-McGill-2015-09-30/dp/B01FKSGJYC• How Big Things Get Done: The Surprising Factors That Determine the Fate of Every Project, from Home Renovations to Space Exploration and Everything in Between: https://www.amazon.com/How-Big-Things-Get-Done/dp/0593239512/• The Undoing Project: A Friendship That Changed Our Minds: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KBM82M4/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Dylan Field is co-founder and CEO of Figma, a beloved tool used by every modern product team. Founded in 2012, Figma has expanded from a single design tool to a comprehensive platform including FigJam, Slides, Dev Mode, and, most recently, Figma Make. After a $20 billion acquisition by Adobe fell through due to regulatory pushback, Dylan led the company to a successful IPO in 2025.What you’ll learn:• How Dylan kept internal morale up after the Adobe acquisition fell through• His approach to maintaining pace and a sense of urgency 13 years in• How to systematically develop taste• How Figma decides which product lines to add• Why Dylan obsesses over “time to value”• How AI is making design more valuable—Brought to you by:Stripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenue—Transcript: ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-ai-makes-design-craft-and-quality-the-new-moat⁠—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/175569466/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠—Where to find Dylan Field:• X: https://x.com/zoink• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Dylan Field(03:58) The Adobe deal fallout(05:50) Maintaining team morale post-deal(09:13) Strategies for sustaining high performance(13:37) Maintaining Figma’s unique company culture(16:22) Dylan’s leadership evolution(21:03) How to improve clarity as a leader(24:40) The controversy behind FigJam(31:06) Lessons from expanding Figma’s core product line(39:32) Time-to-value(45:14) Introduction to Figma Make(48:26) AI app prototyping and the future of Figma Make(53:38) Lessons from Figma’s AI product launch(57:47) The importance of craft(59:54) Developing good taste(01:05:35) The future of product development(01:10:32) Why AI won’t steal your job(01:14:37) AI corner(01:18:32) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Dylan Field live at Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/• Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor• Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao• $46B of hard truths from Ben Horowitz: Why founders fail and why you need to run toward fear (a16z co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/46b-of-hard-truths-from-ben-horowitz• FigJam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/• Cursor chat: https://help.figma.com/hc/en-us/articles/4403130802199-Use-cursor-chat-in-Figma-Design• Figma Slides: https://www.figma.com/slides/• Figma Sites: https://www.figma.com/sites/• Figma Buzz: https://www.figma.com/buzz/• Figma Draw: https://www.figma.com/draw/• Figma Design: https://www.figma.com/design/• Dev Mode: https://www.figma.com/dev-mode/• Figma Make: https://www.figma.com/make/• Zach Lloyd on X: https://x.com/zachlloydtweets• Warp: https://www.warp.dev/• Dylan’s post on X about Figma on an AI product leaderboard: https://x.com/zoink/status/1968588014935801884• Kurt Cobain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain• Damien Correll on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/damiencorrell/• Marcin Wichary on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwichary/• Loredana Crisan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/loredanacrisan/• Amber Bravo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amberbravo/• Figma’s 2025 AI report: Perspectives from designers and developers: https://www.figma.com/blog/figma-2025-ai-report-perspectives/• Jevons paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#Energy_conservation_policy• AI prompt engineering in 2025: What works and what doesn’t | Sander Schulhoff (Learn Prompting, HackAPrompt): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ai-prompt-engineering-in-2025-sander-schulhoff• Pantheon: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11680642/• Retro: https://retro.app/• Thiel Fellowship: https://thielfellowship.org/—Recommended books:• Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Comics-Invisible-Scott-McCloud/dp/006097625X• The Spy and the Traitor: The Greatest Espionage Story of the Cold War: https://www.amazon.com/Spy-Traitor-Greatest-Espionage-Story/dp/1101904216• Codex Seraphinianus: https://www.amazon.com/Codex-Seraphinianus-Anniversary-Luigi-Serafini/dp/0847871045Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.My biggest takeaways from this conversation: To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Robby Stein is VP of Product at Google, where he oversees the core products of Google Search—including the new AI Overviews, AI Mode, search ranking, Google Lens, and more. Previously, he led consumer products at Instagram, where he and his teams built Stories, Reels, Close Friends, and other key features now used by billions.—What you’ll learn:Why Google’s AI products are suddenly taking off after years of perceived stagnation How AI is expanding Search rather than replacing it, contrary to what many predicted The three core product principles that have helped Robby build multiple billion-user products Inside Instagram’s decision to build its own version of Snapchat Stories His mantra of “relentless improvement” How Google developed AI Mode from concept to launch in just one year Why most teams give up too early on potentially transformative products —Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lennyJira Product Discovery—Confidence to build the right thing: https://atlassian.com/lenny/?utm_source=lennypodcast&utm_medium=paid-audio&utm_campaign=fy24q1-jpd-imcOrkes—The enterprise platform for reliable applications and agentic workflows: https://www.orkes.io/—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-google-built-ai-mode-in-under-a-year—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/175041217/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation⁠—Where to find Robby Stein:• X: https://x.com/rmstein• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robbystein/—Referenced:• Google Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/app• Nano Banana: https://aistudio.google.com/models/gemini-2-5-flash-image• Chat GPT: https://chatgpt.com/• Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai/• Google Lens: https://lens.google/• AI Google search: https://www.google.com/ai• Why ChatGPT will be the next big growth channel (and how to capitalize on it) | Brian Balfour (Reforge): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-chatgpt-will-be-the-next-big-growth-channel-brian-balfour• Alex Rampell on X: https://x.com/arampell• A 4-step framework for building delightful products | Nesrine Changuel (Spotify, Google, Skype): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products• Look broader, look closer, think younger: Tony Fadell speaks at TED2015: https://blog.ted.com/look-broader-look-closer-think-younger-tony-fadell-speaks-at-ted2015/• Jobs to Be Done: https://www.christenseninstitute.org/theory/jobs-to-be-done/• The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta• Rinstagram or Finstagram? The curious duality of the modern Instagram user: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/26/rinstagram-finstagram-instagram-accounts• V03: https://v03ai.com/• Pirate GPT: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/silentmeditation/pirate-gpt/• The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f• Dune on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/movies/dune/e7dc7b3a-a494-4ef1-8107-f4308aa6bbf7• Top Gun: Maverick: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1745960/• Purple pillows: https://purple.com/pillows• Avocado pillow: https://www.avocadogreenmattress.com/products/green-pillow• Justin Bieber’s website: https://www.justinbiebermusic.com/• Scooter Braun’s website: https://scooterbraun.com/—Recommended books:• Competing Against Luck: The Story of Innovation and Customer Choice: https://www.amazon.com/Competing-Against-Luck-Innovation-Customer/dp/0062435612• The Design of Everyday Things: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Revised-Expanded/dp/0465050654• Aurora: https://www.amazon.com/Aurora-High-Stakes-Survival-Navigate-Darkness/dp/0062916475• Project Hail Mary: https://www.amazon.com/Project-Hail-Mary-Andy-Weir/dp/0593135202—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Jason Droege is the CEO of Scale AI, a company that provides foundational training data to every major AI lab. He previously co-founded Scour with Travis Kalanick and built Uber Eats from idea to $20 billion in revenue. In this conversation, Jason shares lessons from getting sued for $250 billion, discovering restaurant economics by weighing sandwich ingredients, and over 25 years of launching transformative technology businesses.What you’ll learn:What actually happened with Meta’s $14 billion investment in Scale AIWhy AI models still need human experts to improve, and how that relationship is evolvingHow AI models learn from experts building websites and debugging codeThe business lessons from building Uber Eats from zero to $20 billionWhy most enterprise data is useless for AI models todayWhy urgent daily problems beat super-valuable occasional problems when building productsHow to think independently when building new products and businesses—Brought to you by:Merge—The fastest way to ship 220+ integrations: http://merge.dev/lennyFigma Make—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real: https://www.figma.com/lenny/Mercury—The art of simplified finances: https://mercury.com/—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/first-interview-with-scale-ais-ceo-jason-droege—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/174979621/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Jason Droege:• X: https://x.com/jdroege• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasondroege/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Jason Droege(06:01) Jason’s early career and lessons learned(10:27) The current state of Scale AI(12:37) The shift to expert data labeling(17:02) Challenges and strategies in finding experts(18:48) Reinforcement learning and AI environments(28:18) The future of AI and human involvement(31:21) The role of evals(35:25) What AI models will look like in the next few years(41:43) Building Uber Eats and understanding customer needs(48:19) The importance of independent thinking(50:45) Setting high standards for new businesses(53:03) Exploring and selecting business ideas(57:07) The McDonald’s story(01:00:13) The role of gross margins in business feasibility(01:04:49) Why Jason says, “Not losing is a precursor to winning”(01:09:12) Hiring and building teams(01:12:11) AI corner(01:14:47) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Travis Kalanick on X: https://x.com/travisk• Scour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scour_Inc.• Scale: https://scale.com/• Alexandr Wang on X: https://x.com/alexandr_wang• Why experts writing AI evals is creating the fastest-growing companies in history | Brendan Foody (CEO of Mercor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody• Brendan Foody’s post on X about knowledge work changing: https://x.com/BrendanFoody/status/1970163503702188048• MIT Finds 95% of GenAI Pilots Fail Because Companies Avoid Friction: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonsnyder/2025/08/26/mit-finds-95-of-genai-pilots-fail-because-companies-avoid-friction/• Uber Eats: https://www.ubereats.com/• Stephen Chau on X: https://x.com/thestephenchau• a16z Podcast: https://a16z.com/podcasts/a16z-podcast/• F1: The Movie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16311594/• V03: https://v03ai.com/• Careers at Scale: https://scale.com/careers—Recommended books:• The Selfish Gene: https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Anniversary-Introduction/dp/0199291152• The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth: https://www.amazon.com/Road-Less-Traveled-Timeless-Traditional/dp/0743243153/• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap . . . And Others Don’t: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others/dp/0066620996• Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Albert Cheng has led growth at three of the world’s most successful consumer subscription companies: Duolingo, Grammarly, and Chess.com. A former Google product manager (and serious pianist!), Albert developed a unique approach to finding and scaling growth opportunities through rapid experimentation and deep user psychology. His teams run 1,000 experiments a year, discovering counterintuitive insights that have driven tens of millions in revenue.What you’ll learn:1. How to use the explore-exploit framework to find new growth opportunities2. How showing premium features to free users doubled Grammarly’s upgrades to paid plans3. What good retention looks like for a consumer subscription app4. Why resurrected users drive 80% of mature product growth5. Why “reverse trials” work better than time-based trials6. The three pillars of successful gamification: core loop, metagame, and profile —Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.Jira Product Discovery—Confidence to build the right thingMiro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Where to find Albert Cheng:• X: https://x.com/albertc248• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertcheng1/• Chess.com: https://www.chess.com/member/Goniners—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—Referenced:• How Duolingo reignited user growth: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest-growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley• Explore vs. Exploit: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/explore-vs-exploit• Grammarly: https://www.grammarly.com/• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/• Chess.com: https://www.chess.com/• Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder & CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Claude Code: https://www.anthropic.com/claude-code• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Noam Lovinsky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noaml/• The happiness and pain of product management | Noam Lovinsky (Grammarly, Facebook, YouTube, Thumbtack): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-happiness-and-pain-of-product• Kyla Siedband on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylasiedband/• The Duolingo handbook: https://blog.duolingo.com/handbook/• Lenny’s post on X about the Duolingo handbook: https://x.com/lennysan/status/1889008405584683091• The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir• Duolingo on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@duolingo• Kasparov vs. Deep Blue | The Match That Changed History: https://www.chess.com/article/view/deep-blue-kasparov-chess• Magnus Carlsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Carlsen• Elo rating system: https://www.chess.com/terms/elo-rating-chess• Stockfish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockfish_(chess)• AlphaGo on Prime Video: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/AlphaGo/0KNQHKKDAOE8OCYKQS9WSSDYN0• Statsig: https://www.statsig.com/• The State of Product in 2026: Navigating Change, Challenge, and Opportunity: https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/state-of-product-2026• Erik Allebest on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikallebest/• Daniel Rensch on X: https://x.com/danielrensch• Chariot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_(company)• San Francisco 49ers: https://www.49ers.com/• Breville Barista Express: https://www.breville.com/en-us/product/bes870—Recommended books:• Snuggle Puppy!: A Little Love Song: https://www.amazon.com/Snuggle-Puppy-Little-Boynton-Board/dp/1665924985• Ogilvy on Advertising: https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X• Dark Squares: How Chess Saved My Life: https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Squares-Chess-Saved-Life/dp/1541703286—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Nesrine Changuel helped build Spotify, Google Chrome, and Google Meet. Her work has helped her discover the importance of emotional connection in building successful products. At Google, she served as a dedicated “delight PM,” a role specifically focused on making products more delightful. She recently published Product Delight, a book that provides a practical framework for creating products that serve both functional and emotional needs. Based in Paris, she now coaches founders and CPOs on implementing delight strategies in their organizations.What you’ll learn:1. Why delight is a business strategy, not just “sprinkling confetti” on top of functionality2. How to identify emotional motivators that drive product retention3. The 50-40-10 rule for balancing delight in your roadmap4. The 4-step delight model5. The origin story of Spotify’s Discover Weekly6. Why B2B products need delight just as much as B2C products7. How to get buy-in from skeptical leaders who think delight is a luxury—Brought to you by:DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: https://getdx.com/lennyJira Product Discovery—Confidence to build the right thing: https://atlassian.com/lennyLucidLink—Real-time cloud storage for teams: https://www.lucidlink.com/lenny—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-4-step-framework-for-building-delightful-products—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/174199489/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Nesrine Changuel:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nesrinechanguel/• Newsletter: https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/• Website: https://nesrine-changuel.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Nesrine and product delight(04:56) Why delight matters(09:17) What makes a feature “delightful”(12:29) The three pillars of delight(13:03) Pillar 1: Removing friction (Uber refund example)(15:07) Pillar 2: Anticipating needs (Revolut eSIM example)(17:21) Pillar 3: Exceeding expectations (Edge coupon example)(18:35) The “confetti effect” and when it actually works(22:02) B2B vs. B2C: Why all products need emotional connection(29:52) The Delight Model: A 4-step framework(30:57) Step 1: Identifying user motivators (functional and emotional)(33:55) Step 2: Converting motivators into product opportunities(34:46) Step 3: Identifying solutions with the delight grid(36:46) Step 4: Validating ideas with the delight checklist(40:22) The Delight Model summarized(42:18) The importance of familiarity (Spotify Discover Weekly story)(45:21) Real examples: Chrome’s tab management solution(51:32) Google Meet’s solution for “Zoom fatigue”(55:02) Getting buy-in from skeptical leaders(59:39) Prioritizing delight: The 50-40-10 rule(1:02:41) Creating a culture of delight in your organization(1:06:45) The habituation effect(1:08:15) When delight goes wrong: Apple reactions example(1:10:21) How delight motivates product teams(1:12:24) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/• Linear: https://linear.app/• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• Asana: https://asana.com/• Monday: https://monday.com/• The Product Delight Model: https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/p/the-product-delight-model• Revolut: https://www.revolut.com/• How Revolut trains world-class product managers: The “local CEO” model, raw intellect over experience, and a cultural obsession with building wow products | Dmitry Zlokazov (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-revolut-trains-world-class-product-managers• Microsoft Cashback: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge/features/shopping-cashback• Superhuman’s secret to success: Ignoring most customer feedback, manually onboarding every new user, obsessing over every detail, and positioning around a single attribute: speed | Rahul Vohra (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/superhumans-secret-to-success-rahul-vohra• Brian Chesky’s secret mentor who died 9 times, started the Burning Man board, and built the world’s first midlife wisdom school | Chip Conley (founder of MEA): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/chip-conley• Workday: https://www.workday.com/• SAP: https://www.sap.com/• ServiceNow: https://www.servicenow.com/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• GitHub: https://github.com/• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/• Data Superheroes: https://www.snowflake.com/en/data-superheroes/• Google Meet: https://meet.google.com/• Andy Nesling on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andynesling/• Matic: https://maticrobots.com/• Diego Sanchez’s (Senior Product Manager at Buffer) post on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7365014292091346945/• Miro: https://miro.com/• Arc browser: https://arc.net/• Competing with giants: An inside look at how The Browser Company builds product | Josh Miller (CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look• Migros Supermarket: https://www.migros.ch/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu• Suno: https://suno.com• Snapchat: https://www.snapchat.com/• Use Reactions, Presenter Overlay, and other effects when videoconferencing on Mac: https://support.apple.com/en-us/105117• Dr. Lipp: https://drlipp.com/• How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-be-the-best-coach-to-product• The Great American Baking Show: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21822674/• Le Meilleur Pâtissier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Meilleur_P%C3%A2tissier• The Upside on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.3cb8500f-31af-9f4f-5dec-701e086d58e8• The Intouchables: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1675434/• Yoyo stroller: https://www.stokke.com/USA/en-us/category/strollers/yoyo-strollers• UppaBaby strollers: https://uppababy.com/strollers/—Recommended books:• Product Delight: How to Make Your Product Stand Out with Emotional Connection: https://www.amazon.com/Product-Delight-Stand-Emotional-Connection-ebook/dp/B0FGZ93D9Y/• Factfulness: Ten Reasons We’re Wrong About the World—and Why Things Are Better Than You Think: https://www.amazon.com/Factfulness-Reasons-World-Things-Better/dp/1250107814• STRONG Product Communities: The Essential Guide to Product Communities of Practice: https://www.amazon.com/STRONG-Product-Communities-Essential-Practice/dp/3982235189/r—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Hamel Husain and Shreya Shankar teach the world’s most popular course on AI evals and have trained over 2,000 PMs and engineers (including many teams at OpenAI and Anthropic). In this conversation, they demystify the process of developing effective evals, walk through real examples, and share practical techniques that’ll help you improve your AI product.What you’ll learn:1. WTF evals are2. Why they’ve become the most important new skill for AI product builders3. A step-by-step walkthrough of how to create an effective eval4. A deep dive into error analysis, open coding, and axial coding5. Code-based evals vs. LLM-as-judge6. The most common pitfalls and how to avoid them7. Practical tips for implementing evals with minimal time investment (30 minutes per week after initial setup)8. Insight into the debate between “vibes” and systematic evals—Brought to you by:Fin—The #1 AI agent for customer serviceDscout—The UX platform to capture insights at every stage: from ideation to productionMercury—The art of simplified finances—Where to find Shreya Shankar• X: https://x.com/sh_reya• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shrshnk/• Website: https://www.sh-reya.com/• Maven course: https://bit.ly/4myp27m—Where to find Hamel Husain• X: https://x.com/HamelHusain• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamelhusain/• Website: https://hamel.dev/• Maven course: https://bit.ly/4myp27m—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Hamel and Shreya(04:57) What are evals?(09:56) Demo: Examining real traces from a property management AI assistant(16:51) Writing notes on errors(23:54) Why LLMs can’t replace humans in the initial error analysis(25:16) The concept of a “benevolent dictator” in the eval process(28:07) Theoretical saturation: when to stop(31:39) Using axial codes to help categorize and synthesize error notes(44:39) The results(46:06) Building an LLM-as-judge to evaluate specific failure modes(48:31) The difference between code-based evals and LLM-as-judge(52:10) Example: LLM-as-judge(54:45) Testing your LLM judge against human judgment(01:00:51) Why evals are the new PRDs for AI products(01:05:09) How many evals you actually need(01:07:41) What comes after evals(01:09:57) The great evals debate(1:15:15) Why dogfooding isn’t enough for most AI products(01:18:23) OpenAI’s Statsig acquisition(1:23:02) The Claude Code controversy and the importance of context(01:24:13) Common misconceptions around evals(1:22:28) Tips and tricks for implementing evals effectively(1:30:37) The time investment(1:33:38) Overview of their comprehensive evals course(1:37:57) Lightning round and final thoughts—LLM Log Open Codes Analysis Prompt:Please analyze the following CSV file. There is a metadata field which has an nested field called z_note that contains open codes for analysis of LLM logs that we are conducting. Please extract all of the different open codes. From the _note field, propose 5-6 categories that we can create axial codes from.—Referenced:• Building eval systems that improve your AI product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-eval-systems-that-improve• Mercor: https://mercor.com/• Brendan Foody on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendan-foody-2995ab10b• Nurture Boss: https://nurtureboss.io/• Braintrust: https://www.braintrust.dev/• Andrew Ng on X: https://x.com/andrewyng• Carrying Out Error Analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoAxZsdw_3w• Julius AI: https://julius.ai/• Brendan Foody on X—“evals are the new PRDs”: https://x.com/BrendanFoody/status/1939764763485171948• Who Validates the Validators? Aligning LLM-Assisted Evaluation of LLM Outputs with Human Preferences: https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3654777.3676450• Lenny’s post on X about evals: https://x.com/lennysan/status/1909636749103599729• Statsig: https://statsig.com/• Claude Code: https://www.anthropic.com/claude-code• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• Occam’s razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor• Frozen: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2294629/• The Wire on HBO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wire—Recommended books:• Pachinko: https://www.amazon.com/Pachinko-National-Book-Award-Finalist/dp/1455563935• Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company: https://www.amazon.com/Apple-China-Capture-Greatest-Company/dp/1668053373/• Machine Learning: https://www.amazon.com/Machine-Learning-Tom-M-Mitchell/dp/1259096955• Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach: https://www.amazon.com/Artificial-Intelligence-Modern-Approach-Global/dp/1292401133/Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.My biggest takeaways from this conversation: To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Julie Zhuo is the former VP and Head of Design at Facebook (now Meta), author of the bestselling book The Making of a Manager, and co-founder of Sundial, an AI-powered data analysis company. Also, my first-ever podcast guest over 3 years ago!In our conversation, we discuss:1. The three core manager skills that translate directly to managing AI agents2. How her team uses AI to learn new skills 10x faster3. The “diagnose with data, treat with design” framework for balancing gut and data4. Why hypergrowth AI companies have terrible data infrastructure (and why it doesn’t matter)5. How to give feedback that actually lands—including Julie’s exact script for difficult conversations6. What Julie’s teaching her kids about an AI future (hint: it’s not coding or STEM)—Brought to you by:Mercury — The art of simplified financesDX — The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchersPostHog—How developers build successful products—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-managing-people-to-managing-ai-julie-zhuo—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172723725/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Julie Zhuo:• X: https://x.com/joulee• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/• Website: https://www.juliezhuo.com/• Newsletter: https://lg.substack.com/• Sundial: https://sundial.so/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Welcome back, Julie!(05:18) The success of The Making of a Manager(08:41) Why AI will make everyone a manager(11:38) The future of management roles(14:00) Empowering teams with AI(21:30) Specific roles being accelerated by AI(26:53) Data analysis in AI companies(32:02) The role of data in design(37:21) The evolving role of managers in the AI era(40:22) Embracing change and uncertainty(42:14) Timeless lessons for managers(49:03) Balancing strengths and weaknesses(57:49) Building a feedback culture(01:05:33) Creating win-win situations(01:09:27) Being aware of your own energy and conviction(01:12:12) Navigating disagreements with higher-ups(01:15:57) AI corner(01:20:08) Contrarian corner(01:23:14) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Julie Zhuo on accelerating your career, impostor syndrome, writing, building product sense, using intuition vs. data, hiring designers, and moving into management: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-2-julie-zhuo• Waymo: https://waymo.com/• How we restructured Airtable’s entire org for AI | Howie Liu (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-we-restructured-airtables-entire-org-for-ai• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• The Magic Loop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-magic-loop• Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow/• Methaphone: https://methaphone.com/• Replit: https://replit.com/• “Baby” by Justin Bieber on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/6epn3r7S14KUqlReYr77hA• Kingdom Rush: https://www.kingdomrush.com/• Dr. Becky on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drbeckyatgoodinside• Emily Oster on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@profemilyoster• La La Land on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80095365• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/• Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com/• Limitless pendant: https://www.limitless.ai/• How I AI: https://www.youtube.com/@howiaipodcast—Recommended books:• The Making of a Manager: What to Do when Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0525540423• High Output Management: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884/• Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values: https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0061673730• Conscious Business: How to Build Value Through Values: https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Business-Build-through-Values/dp/1622032020• Good Inside: A Practical Guide to Resilient Parenting Prioritizing Connection Over Correction: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Inside-Guide-Becoming-Parent/dp/0063159481/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Brendan Foody is the CEO and co-founder of Mercor, the fastest-growing company in history to go from $1M to $500M in revenue (in just 17 months!). At 22, he is also the youngest American unicorn founder ever. Mercor works with 6 of the Magnificent 7 and all top 5 AI labs to help them hire experts to create evaluations and training data that improve their models. In this conversation, Brendan explains why evals have become the critical bottleneck for AI progress, how he discovered this massive opportunity, and what the future of work might look like in an AI-driven economy.What you’ll learn:1. Why evals are becoming the primary bottleneck for AI progress and what this means for AI startups2. How Mercor grew to $500M revenue in 17 months (fastest in history)3. Brendan’s meeting with xAI that changed his company’s trajectory4. Which skills and jobs will remain most valuable as AI continues to advance (hint: jobs with “elastic” demand)5. Why Brendan believes AGI and superintelligence are not happening anytime soon6. The three unique core values that drove Mercor’s success7. How Harvard Lampoon writers are making Claude funnier—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsJira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teamsEnterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/173303790/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Brendan Foody:• X: https://x.com/BrendanFoody• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendan-foody-2995ab10b/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Brendan Foody and Mercor(05:38) The “era of evals”(09:26) Understanding the AI training landscape(17:10) The future of work and AI(25:54) The evolution of labor markets(29:55) Understanding how AI models are trained(38:58) Building Mercor(53:27) Lessons from past ventures(56:55) The future of AI and model improvement(01:00:41) His personal use of AI and final thoughts—References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/experts-writing-ai-evals-brendan-foody—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Ethan Smith is the CEO of Graphite—the leading SEO growth agency—and my go-to expert on SEO. After 18 years of mastering traditional SEO, Ethan has been at the forefront of what is called AEO: answer engine optimization, or, more simply, getting your product to show up in ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini/Perplexity answers. He’s discovered that ChatGPT traffic converts six times better than Google search—and most companies are completely missing this opportunity.In our conversation, we discuss:1. His 7-step playbook to rank #1 in ChatGPT2. Why ChatGPT traffic converts 6x better than Google3. How early-stage startups can win at AEO immediately (unlike with SEO, which takes years)4. The three tactics that actually work: landing pages, YouTube videos, and Reddit comments5. Why help-center content can suddenly be your highest-ROI investment6. The specific Reddit strategy that works (spoiler: be authentic)7. Why AI-generated content doesn’t work—Brought to you by:Orkes—The enterprise platform for reliable applications and agentic workflowsVanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.Great Question—Empower everyone to run great research—Where to find Ethan Smith:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ethan_l_s• LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/ethans-linkedin• Graphite: https://graphite.io/• Graphite Research Papers: https://bit.ly/graphite-five-percent—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Welcome back, Ethan(04:34) The changing landscape of SEO(06:19) AEO (answer engine optimization) vs. GEO (generative engine optimization)(08:13) The impact of AEO(11:51) How early-stage startups can win at AEO(14:34) The quality of AEO leads(15:35) On-site vs. off-site traffic(16:32) Reddit’s role in AEO and avoiding spam(20:11) How AI models use citations (RAG)(21:41) Key principles for winning at AEO(25:00) Avoiding hyper-SEOed content, and the importance of originality(28:55) Actionable AEO playbook: steps and experiments(33:35) Tracking, measuring, and share of voice(38:34) Adapting AEO for B2B, commerce, and early-stage companies(41:11) Is letting AI index your content good?(43:06) Experimentation, control groups, and measuring results(46:15) The future of AEO, SEO, and search channels(51:35) AI-generated content: what works and what doesn’t(55:25) The dangers of infinite AI derivatives(58:44) The future: convergence of LLMs and search(01:00:40) Help-center optimization and the long tail(01:03:18) Lightning round and final thoughts—Resources and episode mentions: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-aeo-ethan-smith—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Ben Horowitz is the co-founder of Andreessen Horowitz, Silicon Valley’s largest and most influential venture capital firm, with over $46B in committed capital across multiple funds. He took Loudcloud public with just $2 million in revenue (dubbed “the IPO from hell”), sold it for $1.6 billion, and has backed companies from Facebook to Stripe to Airbnb to OpenAI to Databricks (now worth more than $100 billion). His management philosophy—forged through near-death experiences and refined through coaching hundreds of CEOs—contradicts most conventional startup wisdom.In our conversation, Ben shares:1. Why “founder mode” is half right and half dangerously wrong2. The story behind “Good Product Manager/Bad Product Manager” and why it went viral despite being written in anger3. Where the biggest AI startup opportunities remain4. Why you need to run toward fear, never away5. The one trait that predicts that a founder will fail as CEO6. Inside Paid in Full, Ben’s nonprofit awarding pensions to pioneering hip-hop artists—Brought to you by:DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: http://getdx.com/lennyBasecamp—The famously straightforward project management system from 37signals: https://www.basecamp.com/lennyMiro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life: https://miro.com/lenny—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/46b-of-hard-truths-from-ben-horowitz—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): ⁠https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172439345/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Ben Horowitz:• X: https://x.com/bhorowitz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/behorowitz/• Website: https://benhorowitz.com/• Andreessen Horowitz’s website: https://a16z.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Ben Horowitz(04:09) Important leadership lessons from Shaka Senghor(10:15) Running toward fear and why hesitation kills companies(19:35) Who shouldn’t start a company(22:36) The Databricks story: thinking bigger(24:54) Managerial leverage and CEO psychology(28:06) When founders should be replaced as CEOs(31:20) Normalizing failure for CEOs(37:57) Counterintuitive lessons about building companies(42:31) “Good Product Manager/Bad Product Manager”(48:21) Product managers as leaders(51:16) Why a16z invested in Adam Neumann after WeWork(56:23) Is AI in a bubble?(01:02:43) The biggest opportunities in AI(01:12:51) Why U.S. leadership in AI matters(01:18:53) The Paid in Full Foundation for hip-hop pioneers(01:23:18) Lightning round: book recommendations, products, and life mottos—References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/46b-of-hard-truths-from-ben-horowitz—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

Ezinne and Oji Udezue have over 50 years of combined product leadership experience at Microsoft, Twitter, Atlassian, WP Engine, Typeform, and Calendly. They’ve witnessed every major shift in product management, and, despite their seniority, they’re taking beginner AI courses and learning from engineers half their age, and Oji is coding more now than in the past decade—from Waterfall to Agile to AI. They are also the authors of Building Rocketships, a guide to building great products. In this conversation, the couple shares hard-won lessons they’ve learned from companies successfully adapting to AI, including their “shipyard” framework and their “sharp problem” methodology.What you’ll learn:1. The “shipyard” framework: why the best AI teams embrace controlled chaos2. Why Oji writes more code now than in the past 10 years—despite being a PM for more than 25 years3. The three skills that matter most for PMs in 2025: curiosity, humility, and agency4. How to identify “sharp problems”5. AI at the core vs. AI at the edge: why companies that are building entirely new AI-centric codebases will beat those just “sprinkling AI” on existing products6. The counterintuitive truth: engineers are moving so fast with AI that PMs are now the bottleneck7. Their biggest product lesson from 50 combined years—Brought to you by:Mercury—The art of simplified financesVanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Where to find Oji and Ezinne:• ProductMind on Substack: https://substack.com/@ojiudezue• ProductMind on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/productmindco• ProductMind on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ProductMindX/videos• ProductMind on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/07OVh5pdSv0szHPwWktzQQ• ProductMind website: https://www.productmind.co/• Oji on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ojiudezue/• Ezinne on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ezinne/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Oji and Ezinne(04:14) The evolving role of product managers(08:01) Challenges and opportunities in product management(10:34) Sharp problems(12:37) The shipyard model for product development(17:02) Hiring PMs in the AI era(24:55) The importance of staying humble(27:16) Hands-on learning and personal projects(39:10) Companies succeeding with AI adoption(46:25) Lessons from 50 years in product(49:22) Simplicity in design(51:24) The role of communication in strategy(55:17) Career intentions and personal growth(01:00:00) Ethics and responsibility in product management(01:03:09) Introducing Building Rocketships(01:06:42) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• How 80,000 companies build with AI: products as organisms, the death of org charts, and why agents will outnumber employees by 2026 | Asha Sharma (CVP of AI Platform at Microsoft): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-80000-companies-build-with-ai-asha-sharma• Picking sharp problems, increasing virality, and unique product frameworks | Oji Udezue (Typeform, Twitter, Calendly, Atlassian): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/picking-sharp-problems-increasing• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Joff Redfern on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mejoff/• Brownian motion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion• Calendly: https://calendly.com/• Women in Product: https://womenpm.org/• Brian Chesky’s secret mentor who died 9 times, started the Burning Man board, and built the world’s first midlife wisdom school | Chip Conley (founder of MEA): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/chip-conley• Home Assistant: https://www.home-assistant.io/• What people are vibe coding (and actually using): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-people-are-vibe-coding-and-actually• How many layers should I wear today?: https://layers.today/• Typeform: https://www.typeform.com/• David Okuniev on X: https://x.com/okuiux• Clay: https://www.clay.com/• Martin Eriksson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martineriksson/• Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead• Dave Mendlen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davemendlen/• Deepfake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepfake• How to kickstart and scale a marketplace business: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-kickstart-and-scale-a-marketplace• Forever on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81418639• Paradise on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/paradise-2b4b8988-50c9-4097-bf93-bc34a99a5b4f• Sinners: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/• Claude: https://claude.ai/• Nespresso Vertuo: https://www.nespresso.com/us/en/vertuo-coffee-machines• Gamma: https://gamma.app/• Framer: https://www.framer.com/• Lovable: https://lovable.dev/• Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-lovable-anton-osika• Llama: https://www.llama.com/—Recommended books:• Building Rocketships: Product Management for High-Growth Companies: https://www.amazon.com/Building-Rocketships-Management-High-Growth-Companies/dp/1962339068• Coda version of Building Rocketships: https://www.productmind.co/brpro• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067• The Let Them Theory: A Life-Changing Tool That Millions of People Can’t Stop Talking About: https://www.amazon.com/Let-Them-Theory-Life-Changing-Millions/dp/1401971369/Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.My biggest takeaways from this conversation: To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com